Question of the week (#2)

Let’s talk about World Show qualifying. We hear from regional clubs that it’s getting tougher to pay for facilities, judges and other expenses related to hosting an ApHC-approved show. We’ve heard the viewpoint expressed that it’s too easy for horses to qualify by going to one or two shows. Some folks say we need the bigger, multi-judged shows in order to attract exhibitor numbers, but at the same time, many regional clubs wonder why we can’t level the playing field and insist that everyone have two-judge shows.

Question: Should the point system for qualifying be adjusted upward, be changed in some other way or left as is?

Question: Should Open and Non-Pro horses/exhibitors be required to earn the same number of points to qualify?

Question: Should Youth exhibitors be required to earn qualifying points for the World Youth Show?

Question: What would you do with the system to make it better for ApHC and the regional clubs?

Okay, I know I keep sneaking extra questions in there, but most of you like to cover several angles at the same time anyway. So, let’s see what happens.


  1. Dana Said,

    January 15, 2009 @ 4:26 pm

    Looks like I get to be first, so here we go…

    1. The qualifying world show point system HAS to be changed if you want to see non-pros coming to the show. One part of the country seems to have larger shows that aren’t as far to which to travel, while other parts of the country struggle to put on a show and have anyone show up. Steve is right about costs for show facilities. They continue to go up and the number of people showing at the regional level varies. Many of the non pro classes have few entries. If a non pro comes to the show, pays their fees and shows and is the only one in the class, that should give them the needed point to be eligible to show at the world show. It is a win-win for the exhibitor who took the time to come to the show, paid their fees and it is a win-win for the club who gets another person at the show and gets the fees. Finally, it is a win-win for the ApHC because they too get additional fees. It should not turn into a trailer race to have to run all over the country to get enough points to come to the world show. I feel that should also apply to the open classes as well.

    2. If a class generally has a number to be determined of entries, then it should be harder to qualify for the world show. But, if it is a class that has few entries then one point should suffice. I feel that is true of both non pro and open classes.

    3. Youth should not be required to have to qualify to come to the Youth show. Why drive away people when we are trying hard to attract new members?

    4. See my answer to question number 1. The shows that are held all over the U.S. and qualifying international shows are not all playing on a level field. Even that field by making it a lot easier to come show. Don’t we want our world show to be bigger and attract new people? If they aren’t competitive the first year it won’t take long for them to become competitive the next year. Thus our numbers will grow and the Appaloosa will become more popular.

  2. Amy Said,

    January 16, 2009 @ 6:39 am

    I understand qualifying but when there aren’t enough horses at local ApHC to get enough points to qualify it’s frustrating. Being the only one with a HIH stallion and the only one who does Saddle Seat and Over Fences with the goal of showing at the worlds it’s frustrating to be the only one in the classes and unable to qualify. Also frustrating when the only shows that have entries in those classes are at least 15 hours away….So upping the # of points needed is NOT the answer!! Maybe adjust the regional club nomination from 1 point to just showing proof that you showed in the class even if you were the only entry….showing that you were out and supporting your regional club by showing and paying entries and such. I don’t know what the answer is but if required points are increased I may as well switch breeds as there is no way I can show at the worlds which is my ultimate goal! The problem where I live is the cost of ApHC shows, people just aren’t showing at them anymore instead just doing local open shows so bigger multi judged shows still won’t help in my area…maybe using ACAAP points as a qualifier would help?? Just some ideas and input from a concerned member.

  3. Rich Maggard Said,

    January 16, 2009 @ 8:40 am

    It’s time to face reality; in these economic times, we should be doing everything possible to include as many participants as possible, not exclude participation. The world show qualifications only attempt to prevent participation, and should be dropped entirely.

    We should accept the fact that being “world show qualified” has little or no meaning these days. In our situation, we only have one ApHC show per year, within a 300 mile radius. Qualifying based on the national point system puts an extreme financial burden on an already stretched budget, as we would have to do extensive traveling and a substantial amount of time away from work.

    What difference does it make if a handful of members show up, with a horse that may not be “world quality”. They still bring their enthusiasm, and their money… it is a tremendous educational experience for them; usually motivating them to improve ther stock and generating income for other breeders and trainers. We don’t require qualification for the National show, yet we basically see the same horses compete at both events.

    Finally, think of the time and money it would save the ApHC if they did not have to monitor the points, and send out the qualification notices.

  4. Norman Said,

    January 16, 2009 @ 9:56 am

    The point system could maybe made more challeging for both the exhibitor/horse by being able to increase the amount of points to earn.

    Most non-pros usually go with their horses to shows. If they are also using the horse for open events then they might want to be able to increase get the same points for open/np. This may not necessarily increase entries in either/or just do to finances?? That could be on the regional clubs to include that in a blanket fee? The horse that shows in the same events open/np/35/youth get some sort of a deal. As long as it if affordable for the people showing but still profitable for the club??

    Youth should not have any point system. They really have the numbers now so lets keep it that way!!!

    Something that could be looked at is…1) If the regional clubs join together to have a larger show…can the judges (if two) be counted points for each regional club involved? This might help with regional clubs working together better..2) If clubs join together to cut costs even if there are 4 judges or more can something be done to encourage the clubs to continue this from the ApHC??? Extra club tickets for classes? I know financial assistance is out? But what could the club give in support of the regional clubs that work together?? There would not be a National Club without the Regional clubs??

    I am not sure of the points or the system as to how it all works. Looking outside the box in these are my suggestion.

  5. Lucinda O'Link Said,

    January 16, 2009 @ 1:45 pm

    Dear Steve:
    In response to your interest in our thoughts about World Show Qualifying, I have several concerns. Beccause of where I live the closest shows are 5 hrs away, the last few years, there are not enough entries to get the points that are needed now. Last year directors went to a Canadian pointed show instead of supporting their own show!!!!! Why don’t the points from the ApHCC count? I also do not agree with the open and Non-Pro needing the same # of of points. It seems that the ApHC is trying to keep the World Show as an exclusive show. Those who are able to show their horses in the States at the large shows are the only ones who will be able to get the points.
    Unfortunately, the Ontario club is not able to get the entries needed, so we are forced to go to the States to get the points. We will not be able to continue this, and if things continue the way they are, you can’t afford to lose any more entries
    at any level.

  6. Tom Hodges Said,

    January 16, 2009 @ 4:35 pm

    The point system should be changed to reflect the number of entries and shows avaiable in each region. There are fewer shows avaiable in the northwest than in other parts of the country. Let the number of entries for regional show dictate the number of points needed to qualify.

    Leave the point system as it is now, however you need to make additional changes. If you show before five or more judges and you are the only one in the class,you then could qualify through the regional qualifying system.

    I feel youth should not have to qualify to attend shows. The youth are the future of the ApHC. Don’t make it hard for them to participate.

    In some areas there may be a need for larger shows. If this is the case, let the regional clubs decide what is best for their region. I think ApHC is hindering the development of regional clubs with to many restrictions.

  7. Judy Said,

    January 17, 2009 @ 7:25 am

    Question: Should the point system for qualifying be adjusted upward, be changed in some other way or left as is?

    Answer: The point sysytem for qualifying should have been adjusted upwards a log time ago. When we went to the multi judged shows the point system was never adjusted to reflect this. Having said that, the Worlds show was supposed to reflect the “best of the best,” not be (just)another form of the Nationals in which everyone is eligible to compete. Being able to qualify through the ApHC is not the only means for going to the Worlds. One is still able to qualify on a regional level through the earning of points in the regional clubs point systems. (Or am I the only one that has to keep track of these points?) I say either leave it alone & let it stand on its own merit, or maybe now is the time to do away with this additional drain of time & finances on the ApHC. I have the underlying feeling that this show in conjunction with the Nationals has become an unnecessary financial burden to the ApHC.

    Question: Should Open and Non-Pro horses/exhibitors be required to earn the same number of points to qualify?

    Answer: No, no, no. Absolutely not. I’m one of the few that didn’t see any point to making non pros qualify by any means. This division seems to more or less be the backbone of the Worlds as it is/was. Now one wants to “tinker with something that doesn’t appear to be broken in the first place.” This (IMO) is definitely not the time to add anymore expense to the sport of showing for the non pros.

    Question: Should Youth exhibitors be required to earn qualifying points for the World Youth Show?

    Answer: No, just another case of “trying to fix something that isn’t broke.” Of all of the 3 shows that the ApHC actually puts on, this one seems to be the one that is best supported. The youth don’t have a Nationals & this is their lone chance to showcase on a national level. It is expensive enough in its own right to fit a youth out to show at this show let’s not make it worse by having to travel more. For the most part, the youth division(s) seems to be the division(s) that has the best support on the regional level. Having to “qualify” would have the effect of elimination, not inclusion. Has this show grown to the point of being to unwieldy to put on?

    Question: What would you do with the system to make it better for ApHC and the regional clubs?

    Answer: For one, bearing in mind the current economy now & in the immediate future, I would drop the shows to being (mandatory) no more than being double judged ones for the entire country. Than the point system could be left alone.

    You can still qualify through a regional club’s point system for participation at the Worlds & this would be a benefit to both the regionals & the individual participants too. (The more regionals one joins the more opportunity for qualifying on a “local” level.) When we only had single &/or double judged shows to choose from, the fact that one “qualified” was more than just another piece of paper. I’m left to wonder how many more would actually participate if the standards were lowered, or would this just be another case of being disqualified in some manner; not totally unlike the fact that not every child is talented enough to reach the NFL.

  8. Charity Said,

    January 17, 2009 @ 3:57 pm

    I agree that the point system for world qualifying needs to change, but just don’t increase it for everyone. I have great difficulty qualifying as the entries just aren’t there for me in the classes I need. I am the ONLY over fences rider at ApHC shows, I would have shown at the worlds the last 10 years with my hunter mare but I cannot qualify her or even get a regional club nomination. I’ve had to beg people to show their WP stallion in HIH and haul 10 hours where there was a show with Non-Pro HIH stallions just to qualify. Maybe adjust points to the size of show or region but just don’t raise it. Maybe make the regional club nomination just proof that you support your club by showing and paying entries. The world show seems to be turning into an exclusive club where only those who have access to large shows with ALL classes offered can get the points to qualify. The closest show to me where there are other over fences riders is 20 hours away…now how fair is that! There is no point in my showing at my regional ApHC shows and paying the ridiculous cost of entries when I get nothing out of it…not even any points because there are no other entries in my classes. Even the shows south of the border in MI, OH and NY don’t have over fences. Also the frustration of having had a HIH stallion a couple years ago was enough to make anyone want to change breeds…I could not get him qualified for worlds in HIH…I had to beg anyone with a stallion to show with me and pay their entries so that I could get him qualified…isn’t there something in the rule book that says “fixing” classes in not allowed…well how else am I going to get qualified. I have had to in the past beg someone to try and show their horse who has never jumped before in the pre-green hunter so that I could at least get the 1 point needed for a regional club nomination….thank goodness I found a good sport willing!!
    I agree qualification is needed to ensure good horses and support to regional clubs but something has to change!! The entries at the world show aren’t so large that the club needs a way to limit them!!!!! It seems like the club is trying to discourage people all the time!!! I know I am discouraged and frustrated!! For my situation something needs to be done to encourage people in Canada to come to the world show…we simply don’t have the entries to get the points needed to qualify so maybe change regional club nomination to just showing and supporting club or maybe ACAAP points of ApHCC points. I don’t know what the solution is but please don’t make it harder than it already is for me to qualify!! For a breed association that is struggling there seems to be no effort made to encourage people to come out and show!!!

  9. Sarah Said,

    January 17, 2009 @ 4:55 pm

    Many good points made so far. I feel that the ApHC is trying to turn into the AQHA….slot classes for those elite wealthy members and huge circuits offered out of reach to most members. Increasing the world show points needed will only turn away members who already have a difficult time trying to get qualified. The world show is still fairly small!!! Why limit the entries even more!! The club should be bending over backwards in these trying times to encourage as many newcomers as possible! It might be easy for those who live where there are large ApHC shows to qualify…but think about it…how many states or provinces actually have large shows??? I think the point about getting rid of qualifying points for the time being is a good one!! Maybe just require members to show at their own ApHC regional club to be able to show at the worlds like was mentionned. I doubt a member who does not have a world quality horse will pay the cost of showing at the worlds and even if they do great, it will be a fantastic learning experience!! The Appaloosa is an amazing horse, but the club is making it such a negative experience showing them no wonder all the shows are suffering!! I understand facilities are expensive so maybe let the cost of point fees go towards rental or incentives to encourage new comers to come out and support their regional clubs. Maybe once the world show is so large that there are several cuts per class then require points to qualify but until the numbers are there maybe get rid of it, I highly doubt doing such will decrease the quality of horse at the world show. There are many amazing horses out there that aren’t at the worlds because they can’t get qualified!! Or maybe keep the larger classes at the worlds such as pleasure and HUS to need the same points needed but classes with low entries such as the stallion classes, the saddle seat classes, the over fences and heritage classes as no qualification needed to bring those numbers up. I see many amazing Appaloosas at open all breed shows that would show at the world show in a heart beat if they had a fair chance at qualifying!!

  10. Pat Said,

    January 17, 2009 @ 6:36 pm

    We need to quit putting up barriers to participation. The more hoops there are to jump through the fewer folks who try, which means fewer folks supporting the breed. Folks must think that qualifying is achievable – right now in some parts of the country it’s virtually impossible. If you have no hope of qualifying then you might as well switch breeds/disciplines to one that allows you the hope of competing at the next level. Doesn’t matter if it’s youth, non pro, or open.

  11. Charity Said,

    January 17, 2009 @ 9:09 pm

    I strongly believe increasing the world show qualifying points would be devastating to the club. Where I live it is nearly impossible to qualify for the world show in the classes I show in. Having had a HIH stallion was a nightmare. I had to beg anyone with a stallion to show HIH and pay for their entries to convince them. I even had to haul a WP stallion along with mine 10 hours to a show that offered non-pro HIH just so I could get the silly 1 point needed to show non-pro HIH at the worlds. I have a working hunter mare that I would have shown at the worlds for the last several years but have not as I cannot qualify her. I am the only one that shows ApHC over fences in my area so I cannot even get a regional club nomination and the closest show with entries that show over fences is 20 hours away. We simply do not have the entries here to get enough points to qualify so raising the # needed would put many exhibitors dreams out of reach! I think the regional club nomination should not require 1 point, just proof that the exhibitor was out showing at their regional club paying entries and supporting their club. Maybe for areas with large ApHC shows sure but not for those areas whos shows are small enough as it is!! Maybe increase the points for the popular classes and eliminate the points for the classes with low entries. It’s so frustrating to have dreams of showing and winning a world title but not even being able to qualify. The ApHC is not so big that is has to limit exhibitors more than it already does!! The club needs to encourage more people to come out and show, not frustrate them by making their hopes, goals and dreams out of reach!!
    I also REALLY strongly feel youth and non-pro’s should not have to qualify!! Youth are the future of the breed so they need to be encouraged….the youth worlds is often a yearly family affair so qualifying would damper those plans for many. As for non-pros, most work, have families and other commitments that make is difficult to get out and show sometimes. It might be “easy” for exhibitors in areas with large ApHC shows to qualify but I know for most it’s not! I really feel at a huge disadvantage being north of the border where our ApHC shows are poorly attended! I know I am “part of the problem” because I will not show at our ApHC regional shows because I don’t get anything out of it…I can’t get enough points to qualify, infact I usually can’t get any points as I am the only one in the class so why pay the entry fee and support the club when there is no benefit to me. I know several people feel that way and don’t show with our regional club for that reason. Now if I was able to get qualified for the world show even if I am the only exhibitor in the class then I would pay the entries and such as it is of benefit to me and it would benefit the club too with my entries. There are only a few areas with large ApHC shows and it seems like everyone caters to them and forgets about the all the little clubs and little shows… Everyone should be on a level playing feild…so I think something needs to be done to make things fair for all exhibitors alike! I personally think all world qualifying should be on hold until the world show is huge or just at least take into account how difficult it is for exhibitors in some areas to qualify! I know I am a frustrated exhibitor taking a break from ApHC showing for the simple reason that I cannot get qualified for the worlds and acheive my goal of winning a title so I am heading in a different direction until things change and my dreams and goal are within reach! It’s much more worth while for me to show my appaloosa on the open hunter/jumper circuit against 20-30 horses in a class than against myself at an ApHC show for the same cost!

  12. Kerry Said,

    January 18, 2009 @ 6:32 am

    I agree with Charity and Sarah. I have also had to struggle to qualify for Worlds and although it is against the rules had to pay and encourage others to help fill a class just to get the points to go to Fort Worth. It’s not that I was not good enough, it’s that I could not prove it until I got to Worlds.
    If the requirements were increased, I believe we would see a decrease in Regional Show participation as the Brass Ring is moved further from our grasp.
    With Nationals moved to Jackson, that is also another option dashed for the average person in the west.
    Please do not make Worlds out of our reach also.

  13. Lantz McLaren Said,

    January 18, 2009 @ 9:19 am

    Well, seems I have one answer that covers all the questions. It would appear that the ApHC has a vision of the Association, Membership and current Economy that is not currently reflective in the real World. For the World Show, Youth World Show and ApHC Nationals to grow, profit and be showcases of the ApHC best, I would suggest further incentives to grow participation rather than restricting it.
    Lantz McLaren

  14. Shelby Said,

    January 18, 2009 @ 9:23 am

    Some very good points & ideas so far. While I understand the fact that regional clubs are suffering & adjusting the World Qualifying points is an effort to help the regional clubs. But I have to ask myself why the ApHC makes its exhibitors qualify for the World show when the APHA doesn’t? They still have HUGE Zone shows & the regional clubs still seem to do ok. Yes, the AQHA has qualifying points (& it takes alot of points to quailfy) but they have the numbers to justify it. No, we are not the APHA or the AQHA for that matter, but why when we have the small numbers that we do, do we limit the pool? when we get as big as AQHA, then we can justify it.

    I too show in classes that are nearly impossible for me to get even 1 point for Regional nomination. It is a 2 day drive for me to get to shows that offer these classes & have entries in them. I like the idea of Regional Club nominating those who have shown in the class all year, but since there were no other entries, earned no points. Even stipulate that the person/horse would have to show at 75% (or another %) of the Regional Clubs shows. This should apply to both open & non pro classes.

    I really feel that a blanket raising of the Qualifying points will kill the World show & eventually the ApHC, especially in this economy. Frankly if I want to enroll in a trailer race, I’ll buy an Incentive Fund Quarter Horse, haul like crazy, qualify for the World Show & earn oodles of Incentive Fund money in the meantime.

  15. Lisa Said,

    January 18, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

    I agree with most everything said previously. Rich said it most concisely. The world show has evolved into a show for the elite. The numbers are dwindling and we’ve created classes so every trainer can have a win in something.
    My vote is to eliminate the point system and open things up. I have 2 kids that show in youth classes and I show non-pro. I can’t afford for any of us to show in open classes. One weekend at a 4-judge show can easily cost $1200 and we are showing with one or two in the class. As a result, we don’t do it any more. We now go to open shows with 20-30 in a class, have more fun, and it costs only $60 for the day. In addition, they have the classes over fences that our Appaloosa shows don’t. If we didn’t have a point system, we wouldn’t need 4 judges and we wouldn’t need national fees.

  16. Amy Johnson Said,

    January 18, 2009 @ 5:26 pm

    Being from Ontario Canada it is very difficult for us to get a high number of point, as our shows are not huge shows so it does take us more shows to qualify for the world show. I do not think the points should be raised for Non-Pros to qualify for the world show as I would not be able to qualify my horse to go if I just stayed in my province to show. It would be a shame if a member could not show their horse at worlds because they could not get enough points to qualify their horse & their horse maybe the best horse in the class & miss their chance to win a World Championship. I would rather see easier qualification & more horses in the classes.

  17. Denise Said,

    January 18, 2009 @ 5:54 pm

    Question: Should the point system for qualifying be adjusted upward, be changed in some other way or left as is?

    Oh yeah, let us increase the points so fewer people can qualify or only the rich and trainers can qualify. Sorry for the sarcasm but I felt this was the appropriate response to this question. It seems like the ApHC seems to want to cater only to the rich and “famous.” I am limited in money and time. I do not have bottomless resources. I can’t be gone every weekend to get points to qualify or drive hours away. My show season starts with Memorial Day and if I am lucky ends in August. If I am not lucky, I am done by the 2nd weekend in June due to time constraints and money.

    Question: Should Open and Non-Pro horses/exhibitors be required to earn the same number of points to qualify?

    Absolutely not.
    Question: Should Youth exhibitors be required to earn qualifying points for the World Youth Show?
    Sure if you want to kill the Youth show. To copy a previous post, why fix something that isn’t broken.
    Question: What would you do with the system to make it better for ApHC and the regional clubs?
    I am in total agreement with a few of the previous posts concerning getting nothing for being the only horse in a class and trying to qualify for Worlds. A lot of the time I am the only person in the class or my husband is the only person in the class. We are still paying judges fees and national fees. What are we getting out of that? There has to be a way to get some type of qualifying points for the Worlds in these classes. What about if you show in 2 different regional shows or a total of 4 judges to qualify for the World in the class size is limited to 1 person?

  18. Lantz McLaren Said,

    January 18, 2009 @ 7:45 pm

    For instance, as an incentive. For every horse qualifying for the World Show as the National High Point Leader at qualification deadline, that High point horses entry into the same class at Worlds is free. A reason to seek qualification, but also an incentive to haul a little extra if your in the running for #1. That spells growth, revenue and particpation.

  19. Sharon Clark Said,

    January 18, 2009 @ 8:19 pm

    Question: Should the point system for qualifying be adjusted upward, be changed in some other way or left as is?

    There is no way it should be adjusted upward. You don’t have that many exhibitors now making the trip. I do feel that some classes need to have their participation numbers looked at and perhaps adjust those downward so as to increase entries at the World Show.

    Question: Should Open and Non-Pro horses/exhibitors be required to earn the same number of points to qualify?

    No. I think the Non Pro point requirements should be lower to reflect the fact that many of us Non Pro exhibitors don’t have the financial means to run all over the country collecting points. I also think that the different divisions within the Non Pros should also vary….Non Pro = x points, Limited Non Pro = a few less than Non Pro and Masters Non Pro = fewest of the three as the Masters classes have so far been the smallest. I do feel that as more Masters Non Pro classes are offered, they will catch on and hopefully gain more entries.

    Question: Should Youth exhibitors be required to earn qualifying points for the World Youth Show?

    Absolutely not! I feel that the Youth World Show should be open to any and all youth who want to enter and exhibit their Appaloosa.

    Question: What would you do with the system to make it better for ApHC and the regional clubs?

    Other than the above mentioned adjustments I think the system is pretty sound. I do hope that the ApHC keeps putting on both the National and World shows just for the fact that there are a lot of folks who would like to show at a national caliber show without having the need to qualify. It’s been said that the World Show has the best of the best exhibiting, but I feel that there are probably a lot of horses out there that may be just as good as anything showing at the Worlds that weren’t qualified for one reason or another.

  20. Kathy Said,

    January 19, 2009 @ 6:08 am

    After reading the responses to your questions regarding qualifing points for Worlds, one thing strikes me as a common denomenator. It certainly seems to me as though the national point system needs a dramatic overhaul. The current system has been in force for many years now. Would it not be reasonable to assume that if the system of calculating these points was adjusted to today’s attendance – which, lets face it, has dropped significantly no matter where you are-then each region would have a more even playing field? Currently, you can only attain 1 full point by winning a class of 3 to 7 horses – and only attain 1/2 a point for second. I can speak from personal experience in the region that we have shown in for many years that seven horses is a big class for us ( and normally an open class).

    I have devoted many hours as a director and president to the club to try to entice more participation and get new members out to show. What it comes down to for all of them is “what’s in it for me???” Well, when the reply is “National Points, and possible world qualification” can you really say that with certainty? It doesn’t take exhibitors long to figure out that it is way too expensive to show ApHC in Ontario, and unless they expect to show at world level, why bother??? There are a lot of good apps out there showing in open forum because people simply have no interest in spending money on a club that really doesn’t give them anything in the long run. If the National Point System was re-vamped, to make it easier for exhibitors to attain points, and put ROMs etc on their horses, perhaps there would be renewed interest. Personally, we currently have a young stallion that we are hoping to campaign this year and get qualified for worlds. However, in order to do that, we need to show in the US to attain the number of horses required in the class to actually put points on him to qualify for worlds. Our regional club cannot supply the number of horses in a class to attain that requirement.

    The thing to remember here is that the average app owner is not a multi-millionaire, and does not own a world beater horse. They have an animal that they love, and they enjoy showing. By changing the amount of qualifing points necessary to participate at worlds, you will only shun new participation – and possibly that of current exhibitors by leaving even less incentive to participate.

    Look at your National Point System long and hard before you consider any changes to qualifing requirements.

  21. George Said,

    January 19, 2009 @ 9:47 am

    I am speaking from a point of view as a horse show husband and is appauls me that the club would even think about raising the points needed to show at the world show. There are classes at the world show that don’t even have 10 entries in them and some with only 1, shouldn’t the ApHC be trying to encourage more exhibitors to make the trip to the worlds?

    I know it’s nearly impossible for my wife to qualify for the worlds so she is not showing ApHC anymore until things change. The regional club shows just aren’t worth attending other than visiting with friends. Increasing the qualifying points will decrease the numbers even more at regional shows for the same reason my wife doesn’t show them anymore…can’t get qualified! I like the points made above where just showing at the regional club shows maybe 50% or 75% of shows should be enough to qualify you…you are supporting your regional club, supporting the ApHC through point fees…it’s win win! I also strongly feel the ApHC is trying to become exclusive to the rich and famous and tough too bad for all the little people and new comers!!!! Even at the world show unless you are a certain trainer in a certain class you aren’t going to win….even if “these certain trainers” didn’t have the best go they still win!!! No wonder the breed is suffering and the shows are getting smaller and smaller…unless your name is ……..there is no point!!

    It amazes me having travelled with my wife and her mother to both rated Hunter/Jumper shows and local saddle club shows how many AWESOME appaloosas are out competing against big time warmbloods and Quarter Horses and winning!! If they can win on the H/J circuit against 6 figured warmbloods and at local saddle club shows against congress champions they are sure good enough to compete and possibly win a world title….so why not make it worth while for these people to show at their local ApHC shows and make it possible for them to show at the worlds.

    Sitting on the sidelines watching what goes on as a non horse person it’s no wonder the breed is suffering but nothing seems to be going on to change things, it’s really a disgrace! The appaloosa is the best breed out there, competative in every disciple at every level! The ApHC should be more proud to showcase that by making showing an appaloosa a more positive and rewarding experience!

  22. Leslie Goolsby Said,

    January 19, 2009 @ 11:40 am

    From what I understand the whole reason the point system to qualify for world was initiated in the NON-PRO was an effort to make people show on the regional level. This appears in some ways to have happened, however it has also incurred some unforseen pitfalls. In that some nonpros go and participate but there isn’t enough other participation for them to actually qualify. How do we fix that. This is my proposal. The easist fix for this along with continued if not extra help to our regional clubs is make it an either/or situation. What I mean by this is either they qualify with points. Or qualify by showing under so many judges within a year. I think this is a win win situation. In that no nonpro is left out if they attend x amount of regional shows and show to x amount of judges. I would think 8 judges would be suffiecient as this puts them at typically at least two shows a year.

    This would and should be the answer as to wether youth should qualify to go to world or not. If it is based entirely on a point system then I believe youth should not have to qualify. I think looking at the youth world side of the point vs. qualify. This system doesn’t appear to be broke so why would we be fixing it.

    As far as the two judge system I think it would be suicide to the appaloosa horse club. We get enough flack as it is for only being able to have four judges.

    As far as a bookeeping issue. How many shows and/or judges a horse and or nonpro show to in a given year is data the National club already has.

  23. GEORGE W. Said,

    January 19, 2009 @ 12:11 pm

    These are some wonderful questions, and i believe that first we need to gain more support for the regional clubs.
    A good way to start this is to drop the world show qualifying for the open division and the non-pro division. Replace it with to be qualified for any exhibitor, or any horse you must show to 8 judges in the qualifying period. This would promote the showing of our horses more and would add support to the regional clubs that are need of support.

    The youth world also should be a qualifying event. You could change the qualifying dates to accomidate the youth, add that to qualify they also need to have shown to 8 judges during that qualification time frame.

    If the board would look at these ideas I believe it would help out both the regional club, and the national club hand in hand.

  24. Laurie Said,

    January 19, 2009 @ 3:21 pm

    Should the Point system for qualifying for Worlds be adjusted upward? Absolutely not. Out here in California we are struggling to keep Regional Shows alive. Making it harder to qualify would futher hamper that effort.

    Nor should the Non-Pro qualification be changed and to add a qualification to the Youth Worlds would be a disaster.

    The single judge shows need to be promoted, encouraged, etc. People can’t always afford to pay for 4 judge shows so they don’t go. For many it’s easier to go to several one judge shows that are nearby and spread the entry fees over a few months, than to try to save to go a distance to a 4 judge show.

  25. Lynn Said,

    January 19, 2009 @ 6:09 pm

    I’ve noted comments from many posters about how many terrific and talented Appaloosas are winning on the open H/J circuit, but are NOT showing ApHC. Of course, one reason is lack of regional entries in over-fence classes. It’s nearly impossible to get the points required. The other reason is judging. The ApHC needs to provide H/J judges for the over-fence classes. Why not have H/J judges approved as “limited judges” for over-fence and HUS classes? It’s very discouraging for the H/J folks to show up and have judges who are not familiar with H/J classes. In my opinion, these over-fence classes — that are shrinking every year –should not require any qualifying points — they should be open to anyone who wants to go to the world show. That – and having *real* H/J judges would go a long way toward seeing an increase in those classes.

  26. Lucinda O'Link Said,

    January 20, 2009 @ 6:18 am

    Im really hoping, but not optomistic, that the powers that be sit back and truly read what the members who have taken the time to respond to these questions have to say.Due to the lack of entries, not being able to get the needed points, or club nominations, I am going to continue to show at the open shows
    to let everyone know how good my horse is. We have more fun, get pay-back for very small entry fees,ACAAP points
    and can pick where we travel to.It seems the large all breed shows (Reichart,
    JFP,S.Belle)are more than willing to take the fees from anyone with a horse and a dream.

  27. April Said,

    January 20, 2009 @ 7:31 am

    Question 1: The qualifying point scale formula should stay as it is. The worst thing we could do is remove qualifying all together. That would not only negatively impact regional clubs but also cheapen the value of the title of World Champion. Most of the prestige of the title comes in the journey, not the destination. I also feel it would regionalize disciplines of the industry, as certain regions gain strength in their own set of classes and choose not to advertise their accomplishments.

    Question 2: The same, no. But use the same forumula, yes. One point is no big deal to 95% of our competitive population. It needs to be a bigger accomplishment to qualify. But, an alternate means of qualification should be as equally supported and advertised, such as regional club berths.

    Question 3: Yes. Why should they be denied the sense of goal setting and accomplishment required to achieve something on a national or world scale? Every other sport they participate in has a path to the top–horse showing should be no different.

    Question 4. Add prestige to the accomplishment. Even if a person can’t afford the haul, they shoul still be able to celebrate a certain level of annual accomplishment. This would give the entire Appaloosa experience value. Yes, the classes may be smaller as the formula is adjusted from year to year, but it will be those that have earned the right to enter the in-gate.

  28. Sarah Said,

    January 20, 2009 @ 9:05 am

    I don’t think anyone is saying get rid of qualifying all together just changing it so that certain # of points not needed. I agree showing to a certain # of judges would benefit everyone, expecially the regional clubs!
    I also like the suggestion brought up about having specialty judges especially for the over fences. There are specialty judges for the futurities and slot classes so why not for the classes that judges actually know very little about. It might actually encourage hunter jumper riders to bring their apps to the world show to try for a title.
    I agree that smaller world classes like over fences, saddle seat, pleasure driving, heritage should be non qualifying classes as they are impossible to get qualified in.
    I really hope all of the suggestion made here by members are taken to heart and not just swepts under the carpet!!

  29. Heather McLevin Said,

    January 20, 2009 @ 11:13 am

    Before we have any proposals to change the qualifying structure we need
    to know what purpose of World Qualifying. Is it to cut down the numbers of horses showing at the Worlds, so only the ones that qualify can go? Is it some sort of effort to ensure only quality entries or a minimum standard or level of competence is reached before showing at the Worlds? Is it to force people that don’t want to show or support the industry to show at ApHC approved events? Is it to make money for the ApHC through NPF? Is it to give some sort of prestige to being a World Qualifier?

    Once we have a clear idea of the why then we need to evaluate if that motive is sound at this juncture. If so then we need to evaluate if the qualifying system supports the purpose. If not then we need to adjust or eliminate it. When we do this evaluation we need to take into consideration all the different disciplines (not just the mandatory & most popular) & the differences in regions & differences in availablity of classes & # of judges, as well as the differences between classes where an exhibitor can exhibit only one horse & multiple horses, the strenous nature of some of the classes & whether qualifying allows young horses (working horses, i.e cutter) a chance to qualify.

    It is very obvious that we all have very different needs, perspectives & access to competition. i.e April feels no qualifying would cheapen the World Title, I the opposite as I could compete against all comers. Some feel competing against 8 judges would be good enough but there are definitely classes that you would be hard pressed to find 8 judges to show under nevermind this may negatively effect 1 & 2 judge shows.

    There is a real good chance that World Qualifying actually hurts the regional clubs. Maybe we all need to reflect on the regional club membership recruitment guide posted on the ApHC website. While thir maybe are people that shows only qualify for the Worlds & it has nothing or little to do with why many, many others would show. It has become the reason I dislike going the ApHC shows, anymore.
    The more time goes on the more I believe that for these shows to be viable they have to stand on their own merits, not try to put a gun to the head of a very small group of people. The ApHC shows have become dysfunctional (in many cases) & have taken out the social aspect of the Regional Clubs & in many cases have decreased the competition level. We have to remember only a small percentage show & even smaller show ONLY to go to the Worlds, the Regionals should have more to offer. & quite frankly if Lifetime Awards meant & were promoted there should be ample reason to show, nevermind the value to a good horse, good breeders & good trainers to be seen at shows in the way of advertising one’s programs.

    Sorry, I ranted longer than I intended.

  30. Faye Said,

    January 20, 2009 @ 12:33 pm

    To say that a world title earned by “not qualifying” is not prestigious is ridiculous!!!!!! Look at the AQHA congress the biggest and most prestigious show ever…are you going to say that a congress title is CHEAP…come on!

    I don’t think the world show points should be increase but maybe changed. I like the idea of having to show to show to a certain # of judges or a certain % of your regional club shows. That format will benefit all involved. I also don’t think youth or non-pro’s should have to qualify with a certain point # but like others have mentionned just show regionally. I don’t think we should get rid of the point system all together because year end high points, ROM’s and superiors are something big to brag about.

    Right now there is no incentive for people to show regionally when there is no benefit for most. I know most states have small regional shows and exhibitors are unable to even get one point and they pay a fortune in entry fees, hauling and stalls and such. So maybe some kind of incentive to get people out showing regionally will help too.

    I also agree with Lynn, there are so many amazing appaloosas showing at open shows and especially the hunter/jumper circuit. It seems to be the trend among junior riders to want color and to be different to stand out in the sea of bays. We need to try and get these people to come show ApHC, even if it is just the worlds and nationals. But if there people feel the hunter judging is corrupt it won’t encourage them to come out so the idea of specialty judging for certain disciplines is something worth considering to bring out more exhibitors.

    I also don’t think larger multi judged shows are the answer…for most people those shows are too expensive. Sure it cuts the cost of stalls and hauling but paying the ridiculous point fees for several judges at once is a lot! Like mentionned above several single judged shows splitting the cost over months is what most people can afford in these tough times. There is no need to make showing more expensive and out of reach to the average exhibitor. Sure the big circuits with big prizes and such are nice but I would like more than 50% or ApHC exhibitors can’t afford them. These exhibitors likely plan to show at the worlds a year or 2 or even 3 or more in advance and work and save towards that for the experience as well as a vacation too!!

    Like so many have mentionned the ApHC needs to encourage everyone to show, participate and promote our breed. However when every experience is negative, when shows are poorly attended or when it’s only the extremely weathly that are able to show is easy to become discouraged and want to switch breeds to a breed that better accomodates it’s members!!

  31. Lynn Said,

    January 20, 2009 @ 7:19 pm

    I’d like to add to Faye’s comments regarding folks saving for a year or two – or three – in order to attend Nationals or World. This is quite true for many folks. When I attended world in ’07, I spent well over $2000 for five days — took one horse and did not enter many events. This does not include the payment I made to my show coach or the cost of my “show clothes” (and don’t get me started on the crazy cost/expectations of women’s sparkly show clothes!!!!) . I also spent upwards of $6000 that year to “get qualified” to go. I am fortunate to have a great paying job as does my husband and little to no debt, but still… $2000 is pricey for one show. I probably will not show at world again until 2010. This year I will attend a couple of large regional shows — note I said only a “couple”. I will also attend my local regional club’s two shows. When I decide to return to World, I will carefully work up a show schedule and budget to try to get my qualifying points — it has to meet my “horse budget” or I don’t go.

    I will be attending open shows this year and next – they are nearby and only $5/class. No stall fee. No hotel costs.

    We already have folks in my State who have switched from Appaloosas to Paints and they are showing on the Paint and Pinto Circuit and open circuit. No world qualifying required for either one… And many others who show only Open shows and Youth World.

    We have to get these folks back — We have to become more “user friendly”. We live in a very different world today than we did several years ago — we need to respond to the changes and – I hate to be cliche’ – but we need to get out of the box with our thinking.

  32. Destiny Zeiders Said,

    January 21, 2009 @ 6:53 am

    I believe the point system for world qualifying needs to change too. Please don’t increase it for everyone. I am in the same boat as Charity and Amy. I had to haul 12 hours in 2007 just to qualify for the World Show in NP Steer Daubing. I was lucky I qualified and that there was 1 other person in the class (with his 2 horses), because the next closest show that has it would have been 15+ hrs away. It could have been a complete wasted trip for me if the other gentleman wasn’t there. It’s not even as though you can “pad” the class for someone so they can qualify, because the cattle classes are not even offered on the east coast! There has to be some kind of pass given if these shows are not offered within reasonable driving distance (5 to 8 hrs) from your location. I was not able to run the 12 hours to qualify in ‘08, nor will I be able to this year, so that will be a few entries down at the World show if something is not changed.

  33. Dianne Said,

    January 21, 2009 @ 9:16 pm

    I agree with the idea of specialty judges for the over fence and hunter classes. It is not feasible to expect the regular ApHC judges to become experts on these classes with the small amount of training that is required. It does not help matters that our rule book instructs them to judge in a way that is incorrect in the h/j world. There are many nice apps showing on the open circuits, but the few that do break down and come to our shows find out in a hurry that they are wasting their time. We need to ENCOURAGE more participation not raise the point requirements. Why do you need qualifying points for the world show anyway? You could still keep up with points for year end and ROMS, etc

    I think that the point requirements for qualifying should be done away with for several years as an experiment and see what happens. The World show might even become profitable for the national club.
    We have to make some changes to survive. I have to leave my state to qualify in the classes I want to show in. That is getting harder and harder to afford.

    Hopefully that board will listen to the membership and work to make changes happen now, not 3-5 years in the future.

  34. Lynn Said,

    January 22, 2009 @ 8:51 am

    Instead of using points to qualify, how about using percentages? That could even the playing field for different areas of the country, without making it a trailer race.

    A horse (or exhibitor) would need a certain percentage of placings to qualify. Placings could be based on number of horses beat, or number of judges placed under, or something I haven’t thought of……..

    I definitely do not think youth should have to qualify, and I would like to see qualification for Non-Pro’s dropped too.

  35. Nadia Loden Said,

    January 22, 2009 @ 2:36 pm

    **Question: Should the point system for qualifying be adjusted upward, be changed in some other way or left as is?

    I think the NP’s need tougher qualifications. Open is fine IMHO. If you want NP’s to show that is. If not – then leave it 1 point per class.

    **Question: Should Open and Non-Pro horses/exhibitors be required to earn the same number of points to qualify?

    No – Open should be tougher than NP. The World is suppose to be about the BEST of the BEST competing.

    **Question: Should Youth exhibitors be required to earn qualifying points for the World Youth Show?

    Yes. It gives them a goal to achieve. I never thought it was a good idea to just let them go because they’re kids. They need to EARN it!

    **Question: What would you do with the system to make it better for ApHC and the regional clubs?

    IMHO we need to KEEP our point qualifying and ADD on a minium number of shows you can attend. That way people HAVE to show and they ALSO have to earn points. In the classes where it’s a little tougher to qualify then just do away with the points, but keep a minium number of shows they have to attend. I know Cattle and Saddle Seat are tougher classes.

  36. Ann Said,

    January 24, 2009 @ 10:11 am

    We need to drop qualifying for the over fence classes, cattle classes, heritage, driving and anything else that does not fill. Points need to be adjusted downward for the other classes. Non pros should NOT have to qualify at ALL! What are we trying to do, make the show even smaller????

  37. Darlene Said,

    January 24, 2009 @ 9:11 pm

    I have been into Appaloosas for 19 years now and actively bred and shown. While my horses have done passively well on the local circuits, none have been “world quality”. Now that I have finally been able to obtain a mare capable of competing at the world level, there’s a possibility of the points being changed? I don’t believe that the point system itself should be changed (if it were eliminated, we would see a lot more horses in the open classes thus taking more time to judge which in turn expands the time it would take to hold the entire World show which in turn creates not only more financial burden on the club but the exhibitors themselves in additional stall fees, motel fees, food and loss of time from jobs. However, I am in agreement that qualifying shows should be structured to meet the needs of regional exhibitors trying to qualify. Most shows generally have low participation and it is hard to acquire the needed points. Traveling 100s of miles to attend a show is not only a financial burden but takes a toll on the horse(s) as well. I’m in agreement that non-pro riders should not have to qualify to show at the worlds and certainly not youth. I feel that certain open classes that are generally not offered at regional shows (i.e. jumping, sidesaddle, driving, etc…) or generally having only one entry should not have to have qualifying points. I feel that shows should be limited to two-judges, not four. Some areas may have enough participants to have a four point but still they can be expensive of at least $48 per class plus nat’l fees. I certainly am not going to travel two hundred miles to attend a show that I can only afford to show in one or two classes because of the travel and stall expenses but I would go that far to attend a two point show because I could show in twice the number of classes. The economy is changing and ApHC needs to make changes with it but do it in a constructive way that encourages more participation rather than discouraging people not to show. What would I do with the system to make it better? I would encourage regional shows to have more one-point shows. One point shows are more economical to hold, class fees are lower which allows more exhibitors in more classes, nice prizes and ribbons can be awarded, etc… The mathematics are not that hard. Four pt. show that would only have 1-3 exhibitors in most classes or having 5-9 exhibitors (or more) in classes. Most regional people don’t care about points, these people are the backbone of the ApHC, they don’t have fancy horses or fancy tack or fancy outfits, they are out for the prizes and ribbons and the right to brag to friends. The “backbone” has slowly crumbled when their horses have performed well but the judges still place the four-beaters, heads in the sand, feet dragging, sideways moving horses who still manage to screw up. More emphasis needs to be placed on correct judging by the very rules the judges establish. This creates a huge discouragement to newcomers and they just don’t come back. Horse showing is not about who can jog/trot and lope/canter the slowest, it is about correct movement of the horse or equitation of the rider. Get back to the basics before it is lost.

  38. Sharon Said,

    January 27, 2009 @ 8:00 am

    Qualifying by points by no means guarantees that only the best are
    making it to the World Show. Qualifying by points simply means
    someone was able to beat enough horses at “X” number of shows in
    order to earn those points no matter whether it was at one huge show
    with lots of competition or by traveling tons of miles to lots of
    smaller shows with less competition.

    Several of my horses qualify year after year in their halter classes,
    but I’m not so naive to think that I’m going to head to Texas and
    kick some butt down there at the Worlds. I’ve got better things to
    do with my money than spend it all on a trip to the Worlds just to
    say I showed there. I see plenty of that when I go down and watch
    the QH Congress.

  39. Pam Said,

    January 28, 2009 @ 2:20 pm

    I show at the Regional level, pay my fees (along with my National Point Fees). However, if I am the only one in the class and I get no point recognition to try and qualify for the Worlds, why should I have to pay the National Point Fee??

    As much as I would love to be able to show at the Worlds, it’s not worth the time and expense to try and qualify.

    I’ll just continue to show at the local level — and show off my beautiful Appaloosa in the process!

  40. Jeanne Said,

    February 3, 2009 @ 5:57 am

    I agree with the #1 in the first response…if a non pro or open horse shows up at a show and is the only entry they should get qualifying point (s)as long as they meet the class requirements and if it’s a pattern class, as long as they do the pattern correctly. I have a reining and working cow mare that we have to haul my “regular riding” horse to compete against so we have a horse to beat at the shows. There is few (one) appy shows with cattle in my area (the NW) My horse qualified in senior and non pro reining but since I could not afford to drive all over for another show with cows, we did not bother to make the trip to the worlds. We are trying again this year and the local club we belong to (PEAC) has been very helpful in trying to assist us with the cattle issue. We hope to get to worlds this year but not if I have to drive over 5 states to get the right classes.

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